A Muslim-Christian Conversation

Muslim Blogger

Today’s Bible makes no mention of the father, son and holy spirit as forming a “Trinity”; a term (and idea) coined by the Council of Nicea. Where it not for them, the Christians of today would have gone on believing in them as three seperate beings/entities.


Furthermore, you being a mother, husband and daughter all at the same time is not the same as God forming a trinity, for in the latter case they are considered to be three but of one same essence; three forms of one origin.


You, however, are of one form, with three *roles*. Your analogy does not work. At the same time, you are also someone’s friend, and if you were a woman with loose morals, you could be another man’s mistress. So far, you are: mother, daughter, wife, friend, mistress. That’s five, and why stop there?


Do you see my point? Yet you are still of one form. If we were to simply go with your earlier example, you being only mother, daughter, and wife, you would have to somehow split into three forms to form a “holy trinity” as envisioned by the Council of Nicea.


Further still, is the most crushing proof against this trinity idea: in today’s Bible, Jesus is mentioned as having prayed to the father (I believe before he was taken to be crucified). For the trinity idea to stick, there would have been no need for the “son” to pray *to* the “father” had they have truly been of one origin.


Can you imagine yourself praying to yourself? Or better yet, asking yourself permission to do something?


I invite you to Islaam, where Allaah, the God of all that exists; the God of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Joseph and Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon them all, and the God of every other Prophet and Messenger that was sent to mankind, asks us not to believe blindly, but to contemplate His signs–those mentioned in His Book–and to reflect on them, understand and believe in them.


Islaam is a religion devoid of confusion and one where you are not asked to believe in one God that is at the same time of a trinity, despite you not understanding, simply because it is a “mystery.” I invite you to the natural religion, the final one revealed by Allaah to all of the creation, so that you may attain the ultimate success.





RevQ8
Thank you for your input. You are quite right in identifying that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible and that the analogy of one form and three roles is limited. In fact any analogy to describe God will be flawed. The task of trying to precisely describe the nature of God in truth eludes us all.


Islam is very attractive in its simplicity and I look with envy at times at the straightforwardness of the shahada, (especially on a Trinity Sunday when I am supposed to enlighten my congregation with knowledge on this difficult and abstract concept.) First of all I want to affirm that Christians believe that God is one. We are not polytheists or tri-theists. There is only one God who has created the hevens and the earth and all that is within. I can say wihout any hesitation the opening Sura of the Qur’an - there is but one God and He is Lord.


The doctrine of Tawhid or unity in Islam is something else which I think we can agree on. God is omnipresent (he is everywhere), omnipotent (all powerful)and omniscient(all knowing). In short God is God - he can do anything and he is beyond our understanding. I have absolutely no doubt that God is able to reveal himself through revelation - whether through the giving of the law, through the sending of prophets and through the giving of His Word.


Islam itself has an interesting debate about the unity of God when it discusses the question is the Quran eternal or created? Clearly if it is eternal then the Quran shares the attributes of God and therefore implies that God in his Unity can speak words and still be of the same essence. Orthodox Islam determined along time ago that this is indeed the case and those who argued that the Quran was created (The Mutazilite school) were consequently rejected as heretics.
So clearly a Word from God cannot be divided from God himself. In the Islamic faith, the Word is given in the form of a book. The Christian faith however believes that God reveals through the scriptures that the Word came as a person - in flesh. We believe that Jesus Christ is the message of God enshrined in human form. A Word who cannot be distinct from its origins. The Qur’an calls Jesus a word from God. Clearly it allows that Jesus spoke the eternal message of God and somehow enshrined in his person the Word. Tawhid suggests to me therefore that God is a unity which is different from saying God is a being of One who cannot be divided. I am one person and yet my oneness consists of a unity of different parts (head, arms, feet etc).


So the doctrine of Trinity is simply saying that God is a unity who reveals himself in substantially real ways. The whole scripture shouts this from Genesis to the end. For example in Genesis 1 God created the world and his Spirit hovered over the waters and he declares in Genesis 2. Let us make mankind in our image.(implying a plurality in his unity) Then we have the OT prophets who see visions of God which hint that He is a complex unity (see Isaiah or Ezekiels descriptions). I could go on but I won’t bore you.


All I want to say that there is sufficient evidence to point to a Trinitarian God. That evidence is found in the Bible and led to the church councils to try and explain the unexplainable!!


Islam calls us to submit to God and I agree that is our only response to God. I have chosen to submit to God and acknowledge that he has revealed himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is a mystery and I am content to let God be God.




Muslim Blogger
Allaah is certainly omnipotent and omniscient, but to say that He is omnipresent is something we Muslims dare not utter. To those who say He is everywhere, we ask: is He in the sewer, the mud or any other undesirable and filthy place? If by “omnipresent” you intend something general in meaning, then this becomes nothing more than playing with words, for it can only explicitly mean what it says it means–that He is literally everywhere.


Rather, we say: He is above the Heavens; high above the creation. He is the Creator, and as such, He cannot be encompassed or held by or within His creation. However, what is “everywhere” is His knowledge, His sight and His hearing: He knows all, sees all, hears all. What He reveals is His will and His word.


To say that He reveals His Self is to fall short of the Truth, and even while He has ascended His Mighty Throne, there is before Him a veil of light. Even the greatest of the Prophets, Muhammad (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa-sallam) was not able to see him.


As for the Qur’aan, it is inaccurate to say the “Word is given in the form of a book.” The Qur’aan is the uncreated speech of Allaah, revealed to the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa-sallam) through the Angel Jibreel. It was not revealed in a book; it was revealed in stages over a period of 23-years. The Qur’aan does not call Jesus “a word from God.” It is understandable that Christians normally misinterpret the verses that speak of this matter when reading the Qur’aan.
Consider this Verse:


{O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, (”Be!” - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers.} (An-Nisa 4:171)
As you can see, His “Word” is none other than “Be”, or “Kun” in Arabic. This is from the might of Allaah, that He simply says “Be” and it is. So Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam) was brought into existence by His Word (”Be” and is thus a product of His Word. It is therefore also correct to say that he (Jesus) is His Word. Allaah bestowed this Word upon Maryam by speaking it and intending by it the cause to existence of Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam).


The continuation of this beautiful Verse is:
{Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.}
You bring up Tawhid. You said: “I am one person and yet my oneness consists of a unity of different parts (head, arms, feet etc). As I mentioned to the owner of this blog, this is not the same as saying God is one and His oneness consists of a father, son and holy spirit. If you were to lose all of your limbs this instant, your oneness would still be preserved, for it is not dependent on the existence of your limbs, but on your self.


If God, as He is understood by the Christians of today, were to make it so that the son and the holy spirit were non-existant, then His trinity would cease to exist, for it is necesarily dependent on those other two beings–unlike your self and your body’s limbs. It is because of this that it is inaccurate to say that God is a “unity”, for this implies that there exists other things with which He is united. What is He a unity of? His creation? Far be He from any and all imperfections.
This is not Tawhid. Allow me to explain it more clearly. Tawhid, as it is known from the Qur’aan and the Sunnah, is“to single out Allaah alone in creating and managing the affairs, to have sincerity of worship towards Him and to abandon worship of others besides him; as well as to affirm His perfect Names and lofty Attributes and to purify Him from any deficiencies or shortcomings.”–Taken from an article written by Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan.


In order to understand it better, we can effectively categorize Tawhid into three parts:
1)Tawhid ar-Ruboobiyyah, 2) Tawhid al-Uloohiyyah, and 3) Tawhid al-Asmaa’ was-Sifaat.
The first can be defined as thus: It is to single out Allaah alone in His actions, with the belief that He is the only Creator of all the creation.
The second: It is what is contained in the Shahaadah: “Laa ilaaha illa Allaah” or “None has the right to be worshipped except Allaah.” Tawhid al-Uloohiyyah is to single out Allaah (alone) in worship by the actions of the slaves (us) which they do in the manner legislated by the Qur’aan and the Sunnah in order to seek nearness to Him, such as supplication, vowing, sacrifice, hope, fear, trust, awe, dread and turning in repentance.
This type of Tawhid was the essence of the call of all the Messengers and Prophets (’alayhumaa as-salaat was-salaam).


Then there is the third type: It is simply to affirm and believe in (as they are) the perfect Names and lofty Attributes of Allaah.
So this is Tawhid.


You later say that there is sufficient evidence in the Bible to make one understand God as being of a trinity. Do you know for certain that you would have believed in this, or even thought of God in this manner, had it not been for the Council’s proclamation of His trinity? I believe it says in the Bible, and I’m paraphrasing, that the father, son and holy spirit are one.
One what?


You might hear one say to a racist: “We [human beings] are all one.” Here he is implying that we are all one (and the same); that there is no *real* difference between us other than the color of our skin. This person is not saying we are all one being, as the trinity suggests about God.
Why do you simply not understand that verse to mean that the father, son and holy spirit are one in terms of the Truth? That what Jesus came with was True, for it was one with what God is–the Truth. The idea of the trinity is essentially the result of first coming up with an idea (the trinity) and then going back to the Bible to find verses that might lead one to thinking it is true.



A pure case of intellectual dishonesty.
I believe I have replied to the bulf of your argument. I will leave you with the words Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam) will utter on the Day of Judgment:


From Soora al-Maa’idah:
117. “Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did command me to say: ‘Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a witness to all things.
118. “If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily, You, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.”


RevQ8
I am enjoying our conversation very much indeed. You are clearly someone who thinks through the Word and your faith deeply and I admire that.


I was interested to see that Muslims do not believe that God is omnipresent (all present) but they do believe He is omnipotent (all powerful). You raise the question “Would you find God in the sewers?” I think if God is all powerful then surely this is not beyond his ability. (Whether He would want to or not is another question!)But by saying He would not, are you not then undermining the belief of His omnipotence? Perhaps you are confusing omnipresnece with Pantheism (the belief that God is in everything - ie; a rock or a tree can be worshipped as God) This clearly would be a heresy.


One of my favourite Psalms (Zabiil) is Psalms 139. In this Psalms David cries out “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens you are there; if I make my bed in the depths you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settgle on the far side of the sea, even there your right hand will guide me . . .” That to me is omnipresence. We can worship God anywhere and God can meet with us - even in the darkest places of the earth. I read plenty of testimonies for example of prisoners discovering the grace and love of God in the depths of prison. God is not shut out of any place in earth. Even in the sewers! I think of the Chinese earthquake, and think of people trapped under the rubble, the gutters and the sewers and I ask myself “If they cried out to God would they find Him?” I think the Scriptural answer is a resounding “Yes!”. For the good book says “Whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved”. (Acts 2.21)
This is the real meaning when we say God is omnipresent.


I was also interested to read your comment that the Qur’an does not call Jesus a Word from God. I checked in my English versions and they all translate Sura 3.45 as Jesus being a Word. You mentioned that in Arabic that this word is “Kun” the command that God gives to create (which it is in the verse you quote). But the word in Arabic (3.45) for Jesus being a word is kalimah, which double checking my dictionary unequivocally means word spoken or written.
It is worth noting that the Trinity which the Qur’an refutes is also refuted by Christians. Jesus is asked in the Qur’an if he has taught people to worship him and Mary as separate Gods and the answer is obviously no. The Quranic portrayal of Trinity is God as Father, Mary as Mother and Jesus as the carnal offspring. Along with the Muslims I agree that this is blasphemy and is not part of the teaching of the church.


I defer to your superior knowledge of the Islamic doctrine of Tawhid recognising that my study is not indepth enough to comment.


I can say though that the evidence of Father, Son and Spirit is clear throughout the Bible. Let me quote a very small sample of many similar verses.
Matthew 3.16-17. As soon as Jesus went out of the water, the heavens opened and the Spirit of God descended like a dove. And a voice from heaven said . This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 28.9. “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In Mark 1 John the Baptist proclaims Jesus as one who will baptise his followers with the Holy Spirit.He also refers to the voice from heaven calling Jesus His Son.
In John 16 Jesus tell His disciples that he is returning to the Father and that he will send his Holy Spirit. (verse 10 and 13)
2 Corinthians 13.14 “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”


Clearly in the New Testament there is abundant evidence referring to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So to say that there is no reference to them in the Bible is a fallacy. You can check these verses in English, Greek, Arabic and whichever version you choose - they all say the same. It leaves me wondering which version of the Bible you are reading. I know that the New World translation which is the Jehovah Witness’s Bible (a non Christian cult) has tried hard to alter the Bible for their own purposes. Perhaps this is the one you have which may explain the puzzle of why you cannot see the many references to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


I am troubled by your charge of intellectual dishonesty. The church has been teaching this stuff for a long time - surely someone would have blown the whistle by now if there was a discrepancy between what the scriptures teach and what the church teaches. However I promise you I will examine scriptures carefully to make sure that I am not misleading people through teaching error.


The Old Testament also has some references pointing to a tri-unity of God but this posting is getting rather long so I can post them later on if you like.


I close with a beautiful prayer of Jesus (John 17)
“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might giove eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have bought you glory opn earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
Blessings



Muslim Blogger
Thank you for your kind words. But it seems there were some parts of my post that were misunderstood by you. No matter–I will do my best to write more clearly, InshaAllaah.
Concerning Allaah being everywhere, you wrote: “But by saying He would not [be found in the sewers], are you not then undermining the belief of His omnipotence?” Perhaps you meant to say “could not” instead of “would not”? In any case, that is not what I am doing. I am also aware of the difference between the belief in pantheism, which we reject completely, and omnipresence.


The matter is a very specific one, and it concerns Allaah’s location: “fawq as-samaa’” as we would say in Arabic, meaning “above the heavens/skies”, as was confirmed by the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa-sallam), which, in conjunction with other texts, indicates that He has ascended His Throne above the heavens and above His creation.


However, this does not at all limit or hinder His power, rendering Him in any way less than omnipotent; for omnipotent He is. I think you may be confusing His Power, Sight, Knowledge and Hearing with His location. The first three Attributes I mentioned are indeed everywhere; that is, while He is above the heavens, He–due to His power–is still able to see all, hear all and know all.


So if I were trapped under the rubble caused by the earthquakes in China, Allaah would certainly be able to see me in my helpless state, hear my cries for help, and know the fear that is in my heart. With His Power, He would definitely be able to help me, all the while being above the heavens, and not down there with me. The same applies if I were in some undesirable filthy place.


It is beneath His Majesty that He would inhabit such a place alongside me–even for an instant. Similarly, I am able to worship Allaah wherever I am, for all of His earth has been made as a place of worship for us, yet this does not mean He is anywhere but above the heavens.
I said that it is incorrect to say that Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam) is called a word *from* God. However, I myself may be incorrect concerning this. Jesus ‘alayhi as-salaam is Allaah’s Word: His Kalimah. “Kalimah” means “word” in Arabic, and is not “Be” a word? So Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam) is Allaah’s Word “Be” (and it is!), and as I mentioned previously, Jesus ‘alayhi as-salaam came into existence upon Allaah’s speaking of the word “Be”.


Because this is a word that is from Allaah’s Mighty Power, and because it is a word that was spoken to create a great, great man, Allaah refers to Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam) as “His Word”, indicating the high level He affords to His Prophet. At the same time, Allaah says His Spirit was blown into him. Does this mean Allaah’s own personal spirit (and I am not saying He has one) was blown into him? No. It is the same as His Word: this is a spirit *from* Allaah for a great and honorable being–Jesus (’alayhi as-salaam). Therefore, it is only fitting that Allaah refers to it in the possessive form.


Allaah sometimes makes mention of the trinity as it was understood by some of the Christians at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa-sallam), that it is the formation of Allaah, Jesus and his mother, Maryam. The Verse that speaks of this is a specific one targetting a specific group of people from amongst the Christians in that time period and in that place. Yet at other times, Allaah mentions the trinity in general, without mentioning Maryam, the mother of Jesus, ‘alayhumaa as-salaam, and these Verses are general in their application; they target all Christians who profess belief in the trinity.


Remember, the Qur’aan was revealed over a period of 23 years verse by verse in response to the various questions, situations, conflicts, opinions (and so on) that were proposed to and faced by the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa-sallam). A group of Jews once came to him and decided to throw him off, so they asked him about the soul. Immediately, Allaah revealed a Verse that starts off with: “Wa yas’aloonaka ‘an il-rooh” meaning: “And they ask you about the soul” and then Allaah goes on to talk about it, saying that it is from the hidden matters of Allaah that we have not been given knowledge of.


I never said that the father, son and holy spirit were not mentioned; I said that they were never mentioned as being of one single divine origin, thus forming one, single, divine being (in three forms/persons). So just because they are mentioned, it cannot be taken to mean that they are all one and the same. This is what I meant by intellectual dishonesty: the Council of Nicea came up with this concept, that they are all of the same essence, meaning the three of them are in actuality one single God, while at the same time being three. After coming up with this idea, they went back to the text and applied it to the verses.


The Bible only mentions that the father exists, and that he has a son, and that there also exists a holy spirit. In fact, objectively speaking, the verses that mention them can only honestly be understood to mean this: that there are three beings at play–father, son, holy spirit. Nowhere does it say in today’s Bible that they are one and the same; that the three of them are in fact one single god. I would indeed be surprised if you were able to find a verse that speaks of this in such explicit terms.

RevQ8

Re-reading our conversation above, it struck me how important the transcendance of God is to you and that comes across very clearly. God is holy and awesome and like no other.


By contrast, I realise that my emphasis was on the immanence of God. The conviction God is with us and dwelling in us through His Holy Spirit enabling us to live lives that reflect his love for people and for our creator.


Both our scriptures seem to point to a God who is both transcendant and immanent at the same time. One of my favourite Qur’anic verses is where the believer is reminded that God is closer to them than their jugular vein.
Blessings